Who is Kim?
Kim Morgan is a dynamic individual driven by a profound desire to facilitate change in people's lives. Through introspection and thoughtful inquiry, she discovered a unifying theme among those she engages with: a shared aspiration to transform aspects of their lives, careers, and relationships. Kim is passionate about helping others break free from repetitive patterns and Groundhog Day scenarios that hinder personal growth. Whether it's boosting confidence, altering behaviors, or achieving health and well-being goals, Kim is committed to empowering individuals to make meaningful, lasting changes. Her insightful approach inspires others to break the cycle and embrace a renewed sense of self as they strive for improvement.
Key Takeaways
05:33 Insightful analysis of targeting business offerings effectively.
09:08 Unintended consequences complicate scientific research processes.
12:50 Self-consistency theory explains resisting personal change.
17:22 Discussed reluctance to chase clients for payment.
20:18 Choose between unchanged future or transformation chair.
23:00 Properly planning takes time, also benefits business.
24:50 Visualize failure to prevent project mistakes.
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Kim Morgan, coaching journey, personal development, NLP, Freudian psychotherapy, Carl Rogers, humanistic therapy, coaching course, Nancy Cline, Time to Think, active listening, team communication, family estrangement, research, podcast, Stuart Webb, It's Not Rocket Science, client transformation, CEO coaching, relationship change, confidence building, behavior patterns, mindset shift, technical difficulties, payment reluctance, leadership style, vision chairs exercise, premortem technique, business planning, neurobiological patterns.
SPEAKERS
Kim Morgan, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:31]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science 5 questions over coffee. I better not show you the logo on this particular mug it's advertising. Kim, have you got something refreshing in front of me or is
Kim Morgan [00:00:43]:
it just I'm sorry. I forgot it was meant to be coffee.
Stuart Webb [00:00:48]:
Oh, well
Kim Morgan [00:00:48]:
water. It's 5 questions over water.
Stuart Webb [00:00:52]:
It's 5 questions over water or any other drink, gin, is also acceptable, I'm sure. But anyway, I'm really delighted to be today in front of Kim Morgan. Kim is an exceptional, coach. She has over 25 years of experience in working in coaching, and and she believes that, that her using the coaching methods that she's been working, she's she's worked with CEOs. We've worked with parents. She's worked with families, and she believes in the power of coaching. It has a unique, insight into coaching. So, Kim, I'm really delighted to to be here in front of you today talking to you about this.
Stuart Webb [00:01:28]:
So thank you for make making a few minutes to come onto It's Not Rocket Science, 5 questions over whatever drink you have in front of you.
Kim Morgan [00:01:37]:
Thank you, Stuart. I'm thrilled to be here. We made it after a couple
Stuart Webb [00:01:42]:
of board
Kim Morgan [00:01:42]:
starts, didn't we?
Stuart Webb [00:01:43]:
We did. We did. Pim, let's start with let's start with that coaching. Let's start with, who it is you're trying to help. We've mentioned CEOs. We've mentioned families. We've mentioned parents. You know, what is the sort of the the thing that that brings those people? What's the the problem they have, the the issue that they have that that you are looking to help them to to resolve?
Kim Morgan [00:02:08]:
Do you know, Stuart, this is such a good question. Yeah. I, yeah, I had advanced warning of this question, and and it just threw me actually because I immediately went to you're right. We provide coaching in so many contexts. We provide it in house. We provide it to individuals. We we teach coaches how to coach. So I was like, well, there isn't a client.
Kim Morgan [00:02:33]:
But it was just a really good business question because it forced me to think, yeah, what do they all have in common? What do they all share that brings us? So so thank you for that. It was it was really helpful. So I I came to the conclusion that it is they all want to make a change. But, you know, it's it's as general as that, but they all want to make a change which will improve their lives, their career, their relationships, how they feel about themselves. And those changes include, you know, anything you could think of, but confidence changed their behaviors, their repeating patterns, those things that go, oh, here I I am again. You know? It's Groundhog Day. I thought I sorted this, but I'm back again in this familiar place. Might be health, well-being, that sense of, you know, every new year, we write those resolutions that we aren't gonna walk 10,000 steps a day, and then it's the 31st December and we haven't.
Kim Morgan [00:03:39]:
So, finances, levels of assertiveness, their leadership style, how they manage, their business performance. It can be anything, but they want to change it for the better. That's what Kim,
Stuart Webb [00:03:52]:
I love that.
Kim Morgan [00:03:53]:
Unifies all of them.
Stuart Webb [00:03:55]:
I'm so glad you've done that. Thank you. I'm so glad you were able to clarify it.
Stuart Webb [00:05:33]:
I'm delighted you can hear me again. Let me just go back to what you're saying, Kim, because I think it's brilliant insight. And it's one of those things that I I spent I spent a lot of my time with business owners who who tell me they can they can work with anybody or they tell me their their product is absolutely, appropriate for everyone. And they don't do what you've just done, which is actually truly drill down and think of the one thing that they're trying to do to understand exactly therefore how they can make their pitch, make their service or product really, appropriate for the person they're trying to fit people. Yeah. And so glad that you you were able to show how effective a question that one was by actually sort of doing that analysis.
Kim Morgan [00:06:20]:
So thank you. I'm nothing if not obedient. I take questions very seriously.
Stuart Webb [00:06:27]:
I like that very much. Okay, Kim. So let's get back on track. You've done a great job of of identifying what it is that who it is that you're trying to to talk to. So let me just understand now. You've got this this this person. What is it they've tried to do, before coming to an expert like you to try to, understand what it is that you can do to help them?
Kim Morgan [00:06:52]:
So I think they've tried to change. I think they've tried all the usual things. You know, maybe they've bought a self help book or a business book. Maybe they've been on some training courses. Maybe they've just set themselves some goals and bought a journal, and and I'm not knocking any of those things. Those things are all valuable things to do in the process. But I think what they don't know is just how complex and sophisticated and challenging making real lasting change particularly to our very ingrained sort of beliefs and behaviors can be. And I I think most people kind of assume that if we decide to make a change, we follow the required steps, and the change will follow.
Kim Morgan [00:07:50]:
But you know what we know, and this is where I think coaches really come in, and certainly, I hope most coaches operate in this way. I know barefoot coaches do because this is what we really sort of major on, a deep understanding of how change happens and how it doesn't happen. So the factors that bring about change and also the complexity of our kind of neurobiological, psychological, familial, physical, historical patterns of behavior that just become entrenched. And despite the best of intentions, like I said before, we just, like, find ourselves reverting in, like, simp you know, in the most simplest ways, trying to brush our teeth with the other hands is almost impossible. So think about trying to completely change your leadership style from, like, very people pleasing to slightly more authoritative or vice versa. It's really hard to do without knowing everything you need to do to be able to do it. So that I think that's where we come in.
Stuart Webb [00:09:08]:
And I think that's a really great summary of what some most people find themselves in because, you know, the the the problem that we all face, of course, is as you've said. You know, I look back at my history, my history as a a scientist. When I think about some of the experiments that I was trying to do when I was still a simple simple scientist working my way through the the various bits of the the cell that I was working on and the the interactions, you can never see quite what the unintended consequences of certain actions are, can you? No. You you make one simple change and it was the basis of sort of scientific research. You make a change and you go, well, I didn't expect that. That's just completely, completely blown me. And now I've got to think of a reason why that's happened then, test whether that's going to happen again. And that's quite a complicated thing when you're dealing with just, you know, what I was dealing with, which was simple bits of cells and DNA and viruses.
Stuart Webb [00:10:02]:
But Yeah. But you're dealing with an entire human being and the way that they interact internally and with the whole of the world.
Kim Morgan [00:10:08]:
Yeah. And it it's really huge. You've just made me remember a client years ago who had, a strong regional accent, and this was a long time ago back in the day when organisations used to say, if you want to get on around here, young man, you're gonna have to get some elocution lessons. So he did. He trotted off to get some elocution lessons and gradually sort of practiced and came home, to his family and started speaking in a really plummy voice. But, actually, they all fell about laughing. They didn't support it at all. None of his friends did.
Kim Morgan [00:10:48]:
A simple example like that, made him just give up because he didn't want his family treating him in that way. You know, even something that was quite easy to change, there are external forces that oppose it, but there are also so many internal forces. As a scientist, you probably know the term homeostasis, do you? I do. Which you can probably explain it better than I can, but it's been adopted by coaching, which is any kind of systems' tendency to revert to a set state. So is that about right?
Stuart Webb [00:11:31]:
That's about right. That's about right.
Kim Morgan [00:11:33]:
Thank you. So my best example is our temperature. Whether it is boiling hot outside or in the Arctic, our body will be looking to maintain our temperature at at, you know, that, ideal temperature. And exactly the same happens with our behaviors. In spite of all the kind of actions that we do, we will find ourselves reverting to what's familiar. And I've worked as a therapist. I've worked with families. I've worked with families where there have been year long kind of interventions to stop the patterns of behaviors in the families where they all have their role, you know, the placator, the the kind of aggressor, the person who just sits there and doesn't participate in it all.
Kim Morgan [00:12:25]:
Lots of work. Lots of times after all that intervention, they go home and almost as if by magic, they slot back into those places that are so familiar. So this is what we're battling against, really. It's often also called self consistency theory. And if I can just, like, share a few more examples from
Stuart Webb [00:12:49]:
research Please do.
Kim Morgan [00:12:50]:
Research from self consistency theory. There's there, are, you know, there are lots of studies of people who've won the lottery. Not all of them do this, but there's a real been a real tendency for people who've come into lots of money to suddenly, you know, go about losing it, almost unconsciously wanting to get back to what they know, the world that they know. I there was a study out recently about, weight loss in, weight loss programs, and there's a 97% recidivism rate. So after doing all that, 97% of people go back to where they once were, and some and some even put on a bit more weight than that too. Couples and family therapy, you know, the same thing. I've already mentioned it. So so this is what we're battling against, and that's why even if you're trying to make a change, you you just don't know that all this stuff is going on inside you, and a coach will be able to help you.
Kim Morgan [00:13:55]:
I I often say that a coach when people say, how do you describe coaching? There's lots of there's lots of sort of, you know, fairly dry, explanations of coaching. But the one that I landed on years ago was, like, being a business book or a self development book that's come to life that actually holds your feet to the fire. That tells you, you know, and makes you do those exercises.
Stuart Webb [00:14:22]:
Yes. And it's so important, isn't it? And you you talk about weight loss. I mean, it there are so many factors which actually begin to sort of play into that space. You you know, there's evidence that it's not only your psychology, but your body. There are so many things which are fighting against you making that progress. So you you can you you need to you need to have some some way of reflecting on that. You need to have somebody who's helping you to see the unseen. There's a concept that you'll probably know but far better than me, the Johari window, which is where you don't see your own behaviors unless somebody actually sort of points them at you because they're hidden to you.
Stuart Webb [00:15:00]:
And and and it's that where I think so often there's people who are sort of saying, well, don't worry about we we can get through, but we don't actually see, the the the sort of the thing the impacts we have. And I was saying about, you know, the unintended consequences. So much of what we do have these unintended consequences that we don't even notice, and we do need somebody to help us find them. We do need help somebody to help us work back towards how those, impact upon not only yourself, but on the people that you're hoping to affect.
Kim Morgan [00:15:28]:
Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And, you know, these play out too. I I was thinking about coming on to this, podcast today. I was thinking about something that's happened really recently in my own business, actually. Because I would say that, generally, we at, therefore, are people pleasers. We have really strong people pleasing traits.
Kim Morgan [00:15:52]:
I guess that's why we got into this business. We wanna make people feel better, and we want people to feel good. And that has tremendous advantages in our business because, you know, we build rapport and empathy easily, I hope. But it has downsides too. And this week, the downside really hit me because our, accountant sent me the usual kind of monthly management accounts. And I and for the first time, I really looked at our accounts payable, and our accounts receivables. And I've noticed that we pay people really quickly, and we get paid really slowly. And and and that's not you know, that that's a great example.
Kim Morgan [00:16:43]:
That's really nothing to do with knowing about accounting because we do. Our own sort of desire to kind of put other people's needs before ours is even showing itself in that way. And and and in addition to that, I noticed that my accountant had mentioned that, you know, quite a few people have owed us money, and she'd said, I I've given them a gentle nudge. And I thought, gentle nudge? Isn't that telling that here we are, our sort of beliefs and behaviors manifesting themselves even in that organizational context?
Stuart Webb [00:17:22]:
Kim Kim Kim, you you've you've hit up on a you've hit up on a spot that we could spend the rest of this this this week discussing, but I had a discussion with a client recently who turned around to me and said, almost exactly what you've said, which is one of those, oh, I do hate chasing people for money. And I said, would you prefer to just put a note at the bottom of your invoice with keep your money, I don't really want it. And they went, oh, good grief. No. I don't mean that. And I said, you've just told me that's exactly what you've said. You basically said you don't chase them. You would prefer to let them keep the invoice and just not pay it.
Stuart Webb [00:17:55]:
And and I have to ask the question, where would your business do if everybody did that? And they looked at me as if to say, well, you're just being silly now. But it's exactly what people do, isn't it? They they turn around and go, I've given you my time. I've given you my skills. I've given you my expertise, but I don't really want to charge you for it because that feels dirty. Yeah. I it's nice. Somehow that money is dirty.
Kim Morgan [00:18:16]:
Yeah. It's really rife, particularly in the sort of helping professions. But but that point that point is really valid for what we're talking about here in terms of, you know, just changing a behavior, doing some training, or reading a book about how to run a business isn't enough unless unless you have somebody help you examine the beliefs and the patterns that are driving your behaviors. And that's where the challenge really happens.
Stuart Webb [00:18:48]:
Let's turn, I hope, to the thing where we can give some people some, some some free advice. Now, I've put on here a a link to your your podcast and webinars where I believe you've got some fantastic free webinars. That's on barefootcoaching.co.ukforward/podcasthyphen and hyphen webinars. But I believe you've got other giveaways that you are keen to sort of talk to people about. So tell us about the exercise that you are hoping to walk people through.
Kim Morgan [00:19:20]:
Great. Thank you. So first of all, I'm gonna talk you through this exercise as as sort of carefully and as quickly as I can given the time limitations. But if you want to contact
Stuart Webb [00:19:33]:
I will I will cut I will cut you off when eventually I get bored of listening to you. So I'll try and wrap it up by, try and wrap it up within an hour.
Kim Morgan [00:19:42]:
Alright. I'll do the same. But, yeah, if people want me to send them the instructions for this, kim@barefootcoaching.co.uk. Well, just write to me. I'll I'll send you a free sort of download of how to do this. But this is one exercise that you can use for yourselves, you can use for others that just really, really works and then and sort of engages you with the consequences of your everyday decisions and behaviors. We call it vision chairs. It's as simple as this.
Kim Morgan [00:20:18]:
You put I like to put 2 actual chairs in front of myself at some distance away. 2 chairs, and you have in your mind the change that you'd like to make. And you, determine which of those chairs represents a chair of no change. A chair where in 3 or 5 years' time, actually, you never got around to it and things are just as they are today, or a chair of change. The chair that says, I did it. I'm somewhere else. I'm do I'm behaving differently. And you simply look, you know, you first of all, you look at that future chair in 3 years' time where there's no change, and you see what you see.
Kim Morgan [00:21:04]:
You notice what you notice. Very often, you know, some people go, that'd be okay. You know, I'm fine. But very often, people will go, actually, it hasn't stayed the same. It's got worse. It's got worse because I haven't done anything about my fitness, and therefore, it wouldn't stay the same. If I want to be really kind of brutally challenging to people, I'll keep putting another chair behind that one and another chair behind that one. So, okay, let's look at 10 years' time what the impact will be.
Kim Morgan [00:21:35]:
I I want to say I've used this really successfully with, sort of things like smoking cessation, and I've also used it highly successfully when working with police forces who wanted women victims of domestic abuse to actually go to court. Because it's challenge it can be challenging in those situations to see where I might be if I don't do anything. But, you know, coaching is about empathetic provocation. It's about ruthless compassion. It's no good going, oh, you're doing really well. It's sometimes we have to, like, show people where their behaviors might take them. So do that. You know, whatever it is, you might go, you know what? It doesn't matter that much or actually, I don't wanna be there.
Kim Morgan [00:22:22]:
Then come back, look at the other chair, the chair of where you want to be. Not exactly sort of, you know, a a chair of dreams, but a a chair of what could be really possible. See what's different about that future you, go and sit in it, and talk back to yourself today about the steps that you took to get there. So what did you do? Who helped you? What resources did you need? What support? How much, you know, extra learning did you have to do? And how does it feel to be there?
Stuart Webb [00:23:00]:
Mhmm.
Kim Morgan [00:23:00]:
And then and and, basically, you know, it takes a long time to do it properly, but the the the you know, that's what you do. You come back to the chair. You look at the 2 chairs and go, what am I gonna do? You know? What am I gonna do? Because I'm kind of seeing my future a bit here. And, it also it doesn't just necessarily work for a change. Can I tell you one more thing? I don't know how much time we've got. But it also works for business planning really beautifully. There was one occasion when I went to exhibit, one of these sort of learning and development conferences early in Barefoot's history. And I just had a few of bits of, like, 84 papers stuck to the stuck to the sort of screen behind us.
Kim Morgan [00:23:49]:
You know? The I can't remember what it's called. You know, that exhibition stand. And and everyone else had all these products, and it was so colourful. And I was just mortified. And when I came back, I said, I don't wanna be I don't wanna be in that situation next year. Actually, my, at yeah. The my PA at the time did this with me and said, come on then. You know, do your own exercise.
Kim Morgan [00:24:16]:
And and I said, and when I sat in that chair, I said, we've got products set about £10 because people, they don't wanna spend a lot. They want something small that they can pick up, something that's colorful. And that gave rise to a whole range of, little boxes of coaching cards that we sell, that whole exercise. So I I will send you downloadable instructions to do it if you want to. It's just something I do every year to go, am I going in the right direction as the years tick by in my life?
Stuart Webb [00:24:50]:
That's a very interesting exercise, and it reminds me of one that I do with clients, which is what I call the pre mode premortem, which is when you're embarking upon a project, you actually ask yourselves, okay. Let's imagine it's gone horribly wrong because we're all very capable of catastrophizing. So you imagine just how horribly it's gone wrong, and now now you've got yourself to that. What happened to make it go so horribly wrong? Tell me everything which could possibly have gone wrong to get you to this mindset of where everything's gone so horribly wrong and people will come out with all sorts of things. And you just put all of those on a list and you go right those are all the things we're not going to do, now let's talk about the things we will. You do have to put yourself in a different mind, don't you? You have to get into a different mindset in order to actually explore those possibilities and work out what you need to do.
Kim Morgan [00:25:32]:
You do. In my experience, people do it really easily. First of all, they go, oh, I'm talking to chairs now. Yeah. Exactly what I feared would happen when I came to see a coach. But, actually, it's it's, it's so powerful. And many years ago, I can remember watching a television program where it was about, parents whose children were obese, and they they actually did something like this. They sort of, did a sort of reconstruction of the a construction of the future where they had what their child would look like and be like and feel like in 10 years' time if they hadn't done something about their diet and it hadn't
Stuart Webb [00:26:17]:
Oh, what a lovely example.
Kim Morgan [00:26:20]:
Powerful powerful impact. Kim
Stuart Webb [00:26:24]:
Kim, let me come come come to my 4th question before, before I let you go back to your world of helping people who really need it. What is it that brought you here? What's what is the what is the one book or or course or or program or whatever that that truly brought you from who you were to to where you are today?
Kim Morgan [00:26:49]:
That's a that's a really good question. And I don't I I don't think there was one that brought me to coaching because I because I was just on a journey of devouring everything I could about personal development. I was a therapist, and then I did every course and book available. And then I I think back now, and I was I was only young, and I, obviously, had a lot of confidence. And I just thought, you know what? I think I can write a coaching course based on everything I've done. So it was a a whole mix of lots of different people. I studied NLP. I studied Freudian psychotherapy.
Kim Morgan [00:27:30]:
I studied Carl Rogers' humanistic person's sense of therapy, and I thought took what I thought were the best bits of all of it and created this course. The book that has made the biggest impression on me and on, students on our coach training program is called Time to Think, And it's written by a wonderful woman called Nancy Cline who I I had the privilege of getting to know really well, and she actually taught on our course for many, many years. She stopped teaching because she won't work online because she's so much about that humans human interaction. But I think everyone should read this book, time to think, which is just about the power of listening actually and giving people your really full attention.
Stuart Webb [00:28:26]:
I love it.
Kim Morgan [00:28:28]:
Have you read it?
Stuart Webb [00:28:29]:
I have. You have. It's it's lovely.
Kim Morgan [00:28:32]:
It's an amazing book, isn't it?
Stuart Webb [00:28:34]:
And And it does make it does make you realize the importance of being present, because you are so much more able to affect things if you're truly present. And I think that's that's a lesson that we all need to learn.
Kim Morgan [00:28:50]:
Yeah. And and also sitting in it is like the mind that holds the problem also holds the solution. And if you give people the right conditions to think, not be interrupted, Somewhere inside, they'll come up with the right solution for them. And it, you know, it seems to be a really, really powerful philosophy. In our team, we sometimes just do everyone has, like, 5 minutes each to say something, go around the team, and no one and we all have to keep our eyes on them, and we all have to listen intently. And every time we do that, we're sort of mind blown by how in those 5 minutes we we've learned so much more about that person than we have in the previous, like, month Yeah. Of chitchat.
Stuart Webb [00:29:45]:
Active listening. Kim, I'm gonna come to my 5th question and this is the question which is, which is the one that I I enjoy asking the most actually if I'm gonna be honest with people, and that is what is the question that I haven't asked you that you wanted me to ask? And this is obviously the where I really learn about, what it is that's currently on your mind and how you're thinking about what you're trying to do to affect those people that really resonate with what you're talking about at the moment.
Kim Morgan [00:30:14]:
I, yeah, I had so many thoughts about this, but I think the question that I would like you to ask is, yeah, what's next? You know? What's next? I was a kind of pioneer. I was a pioneer of of coaching, and I'm still passionate about it. But I'm really always looking for the next thing that's gonna help people.
Stuart Webb [00:30:44]:
And so, Kim, what is the next thing for Barefoot Coaching and for Kim Morgan?
Kim Morgan [00:30:49]:
I think it's more for Kim Morgan than Barefoot Coaching. It's, I I I I think I said, I do a lot of work with grief and loss. And it's a kind of offshoot of grief and loss that I'm really noticing in in clients and people in the world, and that is like family estrangement. There are more and more children divorcing their parents and parents divorcing their children. And I just think it's something that is, you know, people is gonna need a lot of help with.
Stuart Webb [00:31:29]:
Yeah. So
Kim Morgan [00:31:29]:
that's the I'm doing a bit of research into that right now.
Stuart Webb [00:31:34]:
Kim, I wish you every success with that. I love to hear the fact that you're gonna address that. And that's the father of a current 23 year old who still seems to be clinging on like a limpet, showing no signs of divorcing me. I'm sure he won't need your help, but he'll need help from people like you to do so much, in his life. Kim, it's been an absolute pleasure. I mean, a real, real pleasure to have you spend a few minutes with us, and thank you so much for sharing so much intimate knowledge of what you do. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do the, the quick outro, which is, look, if you would like to get an email so that you actually know who's coming on to these things and gonna spend some time listening to people like him, giving huge amounts of value and and, and wisdom. Just go to this link, which is link dot the complete approach dotco.ukforward/newsletter.
Stuart Webb [00:32:28]:
That's link dot the complete approach dotco.ukforward/newsletter. It's a simple form. You'll get an email once a week, which basically says this week coming up is whoever it is. Tune in and watch the Wisdom Roll. Kim, thank you so much for spending some time with us. I appreciate this is, we had a little technical difficulty, but but we got through the technical difficulty, and we heard you brilliantly throughout it. And and you've really poured wisdom, and I really appreciate the time you spent with us. So thank you so much indeed.
Kim Morgan [00:32:59]:
I really appreciate you inviting me here. Thank you. I've really loved talking to you. And whoever else is here, thank you for being here.
Stuart Webb [00:33:06]:
Yeah. We've had we've had some wonderful people, like, and I know Therese Baptist has been here. She's a fantastic fantastic person. I love I love I love Therese. Sally Sally Alou Richards, Andy Chandler. We've had people listening to you, and I know they're gonna enjoy listening back to this, and and hearing what you've been having to say. So thank you so much for spending some time with us.
Kim Morgan [00:33:30]:
It's been a real pleasure. Thank you.
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